<DanC> Scribe: DanC
DW: need to leave at 10:45 to get medical attention for my wrist
<timbl> +Vlad, Dan K coming
<DanC> Zakim, who is on the phone?
<Danny> 1 - update on grant status stuff - JimH
<Danny> 2 - report of cwm team (status, issues, next steps) - Tim
<Danny> 3 - report of demo team (status, issues, next steps) - DanC
<Danny> 4 - Publication plan - Jim
<Danny> Key topics: N3 Semantics, CWM behaviors, ...
<Danny> Target venues:
<Danny> - WWW 2006
<Danny> 5 - TAMI update - Danny
<Danny> 6 - Next Meetings:
<Danny> -confirming 18-19 January 2006 at UMD
<Danny> -ongoing task force meetings
<Danny> -who's going to ISWC
<scribe> Scribe: DanC
JH: we filed our filed our annual
report to NSF. We're in good standing
... we don't have a demo scheduled soon...
... official visit will probably happen early '06
... we're a little low on publications vs where we should be, but they probably won't "bash" us too badly on that. But for next year, we'll really need to do better.
TBL: we started with the
challenge of cwm --why on the girl scout case lalana built at
the Aug ftf...
... as of a couple days ago, cwm --why works, as well as check.py, on that case...
TBL: with a caveat about
bnodes... had to [skolemize] them...
... code is fragile/raw... brand new...
... meanwhile, dan's proxy ran into trouble with lalana's rules, and there are new rules...
(a) cwm --why is working on the girl scout case
though we ran into a glitch with rein/engine.n3
when we plugged it into the proxy
(b) pychinko is using the mainline rdflib; no more branch
(c) pychinko's built-in support is coming along:
<vkolovski> btw, pychinko is able to load the troop policy file and to
build a proper rete net from it
<vkolovski> but the problem comes from the engine.n3 file, because it
uses log:conclusion and conjunction
(d) it's pretty clear now how pychinko can fit into cwm
TBL: yes, we can start on fitting pychinko into cwm
Vlad: yes, I intend to start on that. shouldn't take that long.
"We'll have a cwm/paw dev meeting 4pET Fr 4 Nov, DK at risk." -- http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/doc/plans.html
<DanC_> gold star timbl and vlad :)
DK: we were just hacking last night... got the proxy talking to the resource manager, with a fake proof...
DanC: we're sending the proof in a header on the HTTP GET, so the length of the proof is an issue
TimBL: the proof is 300 KB
<DanC_> (I've been thinking we should use a backward chainer. was gonna try euler on our use case)
DK: send it in the body of the GET?
TimBL: could the server say "put your proof here" perhaps?
DC: hmm.. maybe
DK: we've got check.py integrated into the resource manager...
DC: tim, did you say the proof takes 1.5min to check?
<timbl> 1min 3 sec
TBL: yeah... a minute or so... dunno how much is diagnostics
DC: how about using a backward-chainer... euler?
TBL: we should be able to adjust cwm so that it only has the relevant parts of the proof
JH: there's been some work on explaining fwd-chaining proofs that prunes...
TBL: cwm only spits out a proof of what it prints out... [news to me]... but the structure of the proof includes log:conclusion...
[missed some there]
DK: we should be able to put all the pieces of the girl-scout case together today: pf gen, pf check, proxy, resource manager
DC: 3 policies? we've only tested one
LK: all 3 policy files contain the same rules
DW: we have a regular telcon
slot... Tue 1 Nov is the next one
... next milestone is ftf mid Jan... goals for that time?
... telcon before then?
DC: I think it would be good just to address outstanding engineering issues by Jan... to get pf gen/check down to 1 or 2 seconds
JH: I have a [missed] early
... in early Dec, I'm giving a cwm talk where I have to show results. workshop with NSF people etc.
... I expect maybe our PM or more likely somebody from her program
<vkolovski> btw, I will be giving a PAW talk at the policy workshop at ISWC
DJW: so... show some progress in early Dec and target realistic performance for Jan
(Mike P...i? who's that?)
JH: it's also possible that Mike
P's replacement will come and ask for something. [?]
... screen dumps would work for early Dec. "it works but takes too long" is OK progress to report
DW: you want that as a
deliverable of the demo group? OK.
Key topics: N3 Semantics, CWM behaviors, ...
VK: WWW conf submission deadline is 6 Nov
JH: there is no citeable cwm paper
DC: the tutorial isn't citeable?
JH: no, not peer-reviewed
<DanC_> (I want to do the authoring in XHTML, please. I can produce LaTeX from it. http://www.w3.org/2004/04/xhlt91/ )
TBL: I asked Gerry for help on formal semantics... he gave a somewhat dismissive answer...
(dismissive of formal semantics, not of timbl)
<timbl> suggested taht an operational semantics was all tht made sense ,,, more or less
(vkolovski, "academic style" often means TeX. Let's do the collaboration in XHTML, OK?)
JH: another target is the web semantics journal. hmm... turn-around time might be an issue
<timbl> Important in cwm etc to get the *phioliophy* of what we are trying to get out ther up front as to why we aren't chasing the same traeoffs as previous systems.
<timbl> like /DesignIssues/Diff
JH: so that's cwm papers...
<DanC_> (what of "KR" conference?)
JH: another writing assignment DJW and I are ware of is TAMI...
<vkolovski> KR would be a nice venue for our n3 semantics paper,
JH: so that's the topics... (1) cwm, [missed 2 and 3?]
<vkolovski> however the deadline is early nov., too
JH: so that's the topics... (1)
cwm as problem solver (2) approach to policy awareness (3)
formalization of N3
... we have a book chapter of (2) but need to revise that
DJW: how about a presentation at Jan PAW ftf of cwm [stuff]?
<Danny> N3 Logic design philosophy/motivation
TBL: umm... ok, but it's important to put [it] in the paper... the Diff paper reviewers didn't get some of the main points... our system is crude, but looking stuff up in the web is novel... [?]
JH: "cwm: a problem-solver for the Web" or something like that
<Danny> Paper -- CWM: A Problem Solver for the Web
<timbl> s/crud/crude/g :-)
JH: my 1st impression of cwm was "so these built-ins are novel, but so what?" but then I learned there's more to it
TBL: I'd like some brainstorming... if I could spend 45 min on the phone after JH reads /N3Logic ...
<timbl> The dsign philosophy of gatheringrules from all over the place and getting the result you want
[we get a preview of such brainstorming...]
DJW: how about ACTION JH: report back on brainstorming with TBL on N3Logic
<scribe> ACTION: JH to report back on brainstorming with TBL on N3Logic
VK: about our approach to policy
awareness... I'm presenting at the policy workshop at
... I expect peertrust folks will be there...
... anybody else will be there?
LK: I'll be there. [chairing]
DJW: hope to attend part. Monday.
TBL: can't be there. I'll be in the industry part...
<timbl> I will be in the Industry Day .. i may try to get out but it is unlikely ... launching new working groups etc
LK: I think our paper is late in the day 4:xx...
DJW: that's hard
DJW: to re-iterate: 18-19 Jan at UMD
JH: invite DebM to Jan/UMD
meeting? think about it. soon.
LK: TAMI will be a tool to record audit trail proofs
(fyi, the TAMI group's weekly rhythm is a sort of class. http://groups.csail.mit.edu/dig/2005/09/6.898/ )
<timbl> Do we have a 'plan' page in which I can find all these pointers etc
LK: we've been working on a "deadbeat dad" law case... what data is allowed to be used where
<scribe> ACTION: DanC to add link to lk's REIN examples from policyawareweb.org
TBL: I'd like a page that collects [missed]
<timbl> all the test data whcih cwm is expected to handle, so I can retest it
<lkagal> I'll be updating this page with more TAMI examples : http://groups.csail.mit.edu/dig/2005/10/TAMI/examples/
expected by the PAW project?
<scribe> ScribeNick: nobody
<lkagal> DanC, TimBL, Vlad, I'd like to help with the cwm paper. Would that be OK ?
<DanC> yes, I'm counting on it
<DanC> have you started reviewing http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/N3Logic ?
<DanC> I think " The log: namespace has functions " assumes the reader shares a rather parochial understanding of "namespace
<DanC> hmm... tim, what would you think about using the paw svn space to edit N3Logic? we'd all have write access then
<lkagal> Yes. However, I believe it was decided to split up the paper into 2, (i) cwm functionality, and (ii) N3 semantics/logic. I believe we're starting with the cwm functionality paper which will be made up of the tutorial and the rule wkshp paper, http://www.w3.org/2004/12/rules-ws/paper/94/
<DanC> I don't think N3Logic has anything about cwm functionality, does it?
<timbl> I don't see what is interesting about CWM which isn't very much to do with N3 logic
<DanC> tim, I think "cwm, a problem solver" is a totally diffent paper from "formal semantics of N3"
<lkagal> JH: so that's the topics... (1) cwm as problem solver (2) approach to policy awareness (3) formalization of N3
<timbl> Feels like teh n3 logic paper is background you need for cwm, and cwm the the mativational paper you need to understand wht n3 logic.
<lkagal> I think the idea is to first describe what cwm does before going into why.
<DanC> tim, there are people that don't need any motivation to pore over a paper on N3 logic. Look at Herman ter Horst's review of SPARQL. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Oct/0068.html
<DanC> in sum, "get all that tutorial stuff out of the way so I can study the math"
<DanC> so yes, some people will use one paper as motivation to read the other. but they have different primary audiences, I think.
<lkagal> So, I still think the N3 formal semantics paper would be perfect for AAAI's track on AI & the Web. The cwm functionality paper can be sent to ISWC or a WWW workshop - I don't think it would make it to a journal.
<timbl> So who is going to write that paper -- be chief cook?
<DanC> timbl, you're chief cook until you delegate
<lkagal> I'd be happy to help put the paper together.
<timbl> Well, I though I heard Vlad say that he was going to write it, and may have heard Lalana suggest she would, and I would be happy to delegate to either or both
<vkolovski> just to jump in, heard you talking about it
<vkolovski> I think it's a good idea to have a cwm systems paper for the journal of web semantics
<vkolovski> like jim suggested
<timbl> Ok, so is that a plit then - Vad do the cwm paper ad Lalana do the N3logic paper?
<vkolovski> i can take the initiative for that paper, but will need help
<timbl> Yes, certianly.
<DanC> +1 "Vad do the cwm paper ad Lalana do the N3logic paper"
<timbl> I am happy to give help where I can
<DanC> and do it in XHTML pretty please (though I'll understand if you say no)
<vkolovski> Danc, I will have problems with all of the equations when writing it in html
<DanC> are you sure? you can just write <samp>go nuts with latex math mode here</samp>
<DanC> how many equasions will you need in a systems paper on cwm?
<vkolovski> oh i see - what about the journal proceedings templates
<timbl> Ok, is that agreed, then? Vlad, Lalana? Vlad to be chief writer on the cwm systems paper and Lalana on the N3 logic one?
<vkolovski> timbl, it's fine with me
<DanC> I'm pretty sure I can adapt the tools to other latex styles, vkolovski
<DanC> it's probably just a one line change
<lkagal> Yes, its fine with me too. Vlad, if you need some help with the cwm paper, let me know.
<timbl> ACTION: Vlad chief writer on the cwm systems paper for the journal of web semantics.
<vkolovski> Danc, I will investigate the option.
<DanC> vlad, what's the deadline for that? I guess journals don't have deadlines?
<timbl> ACTIO: Lalana be chief writer on an N3 logic aimed at AAAI's track on AI & the Web.
<DanC> if you can drop a pointer to journal of web semantics "instructions for authors", pls do
<vkolovski> It's a rolling submission - it takes more time to get the results back though
<vkolovski> Jim mentioned he will talk to the JWS people at ISWC
<vkolovski> ok will do
<DanC> "the author(s) will be asked to transfer copyright of the article to the Publisher" BZZZT!
<vkolovski> it's always like that with conference journal publications
<DanC> I don't see a latex style; they ask for PDF, with certain layout and references styles. Do they re-key the paper?!?
<DanC> it _was_ always like that with conference journal pubs.
<lkagal> Most confs and journals do provide a latex style.
<DanC> "My artwork is on a 3.5" disk, CD-ROM, ZIP disk or JAZ disk." chuckle.
<vkolovski> what do you mean, i just signed a copyright release form for the ISWC paper
<vkolovski> what is the big problem with latex?
<vkolovski> it's easy to edit, no?
<DanC> the only way to read a latex paper is to print it. ugh.
<DanC> latex syntax is incredibly arcane. look at latex2html.pl
<timbl> The Southamton people have EPrints and have been battling the publishers hard.
<DanC> "Tables must be typed on separate sheets and should have a short title and an arabic number." ?!? this is for a journal with online delivery? hello, Elsevier, welome to the 21st century.
<vkolovski> "Quarterly electronic publication; yearly archival print volume in December"
<vkolovski> also, this:
<vkolovski> Open-source software and tools that help to advance the field more rapidly, will be published and demonstrated based on a rigorous review and selection process
<vkolovski> considering this, we're in good shape :)
<timbl> Ooops.. seems I wrote the code to check the valdiity of a rule's evidence twice ... which would increase the time significantly as it is recursive. Now 25s